"472CID" (472CID)
03/11/2015 at 12:34 • Filed to: None
5
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"472CID" (472CID)
03/11/2015 at 12:34 • Filed to: None | 5
| 47 |
I read a quote somewhere from a Corvette engineer to the effect of:"to get any more performance we'd have to go mid-engined." Which got me to thinking what is the limit for a front engine rear wheel drive car? Now we've heard for years that cars can't handle X amount of power without all wheel drive or being mid-engined (I think they said that about the Viper in the 1990s), and yet cars of this type keep getting faster and faster. I do wonder though if we're seeing diminishing returns.
First thing that comes to mind is the new Z06. It's the latest and greatest, fitted with super sticky tires, crazy aero, and even crazier brakes. We've only seen a handful of tests so far to see what this beast can do.
The Vette's natural enemy, the Viper, is another strong contender. It could be even stronger if we get an ACR revival.
Ferrari has what is potentially the most powerful FR car ever, the F12 Berlinetta. With 740hp you'd think it'd be easily the fastest thing around, but then there's that whole diminishing returns business. Motor Trend found that it was !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! than a Z51 Corvette round Laguna Seca.
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
Mercedes has had a number of heady front engines missiles over the years. Of course being Mercedes these cars are really more GTs that "pure" sports cars, but that doesn't mean they aren't fast. Interestingly enough, the new AMG GT is the second fastest FR car on Top Gears Power Laps board, for whatever that's worth.
Probably the fastest road legal cars with the engine up front and the drive in back would be the upper end Caterhams. The 650R for example finds itself atop many track record lists for this kind of vehicle. Being a track day quasi-kit car means it's debatable if it compares to the rest of these cars.
Other fast front engine rear drives include things like: F type R, V12 Vantage S, Camaro Z28/ZL1, Challenger SRT Hellcat, Shelby GT500/upcoming GT350, and some rowdy old TVRs. Here's a good 'ol spreadsheet to see how the compare on paper. Oh, and by front engined I mean in front of the driver, so no smart ass corrections.
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
Leon711
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 12:37 |
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Aston Vulcan?
Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 12:41 |
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Motor Trend found that it was just .2 seconds faster than a Z51 Corvette round Laguna Seca.
I wonder how the Z06 would do...
Have they tried it yet?
Cherry_man1
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 12:41 |
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No Rolls Royce Wraith or Bentley Continental ?
What is this!?
Rock Bottom
> Leon711
03/11/2015 at 12:44 |
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Sorry... I read this "Avro Vulcan"!
Moves-Like-Senna
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 12:45 |
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No Nissan GTR Nismo?
Just realized it's AWD, my bad.
JGrabowMSt
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 12:46 |
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50 years ago Shelby supercharged and twin supercharged 427 side oiler motors for "in excess of 1200HP and 1100ft-lbs of torque." You're telling me these engineers cant do better than that?
Also, aftermarket tuning shops and mods have produced insane numbers from front engined, rear wheel drive for a long time. Theres no excuse.
Also, youve forgotten the Hellcat.
Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 12:47 |
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depends on which front engine RWD cars you can get as a rental car. Then that will be the fastest!
djmt1
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 12:50 |
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It's the One 77. It can do over 220mph which I think makes it the fastest production front engined car.
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472CID
> Cherry_man1
03/11/2015 at 12:51 |
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The Rolls isn't remotely close to these cars in term of performance. The Bentley is surprisingly quick for it's power/weight, in part because it's AWD.
Milky
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 12:51 |
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This whenever it comes out.
*see old ACR for evidence
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472CID
> Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer
03/11/2015 at 12:53 |
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The only track test I know is Motor Trend at Willow Springs against the GTR Nismo, it pulled down good, if a bit disappointing numbers.
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472CID
> Leon711
03/11/2015 at 12:54 |
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Pretty early to tell, also not road legal as far as I know.
TheHondaBro
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 12:55 |
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Damn.
"make model" is faster than the AMG GT-S?
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Cherry_man1
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 12:56 |
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I forgot the Bentley was AWD my bad ^^;
I though the had a Bentley RWD model though...
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Leon711
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 12:58 |
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Reading comprehension fail on my part.
Manwich - now Keto-Friendly
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 12:59 |
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Funny Car drag racer:
Faster in a straight line than any of the cars listed above.
:-)
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472CID
> djmt1
03/11/2015 at 13:05 |
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Good call, not that we'd ever get to see that proven. I don't think the One-77 would do well on a road course, based on my very scientific video game testing.
spanfucker retire bitch
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 13:10 |
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Now we've heard for years that cars can't handle X amount of power without all wheel drive or being mid-engined (I think they said that about the Viper in the 1990s), and yet cars of this type keep getting faster and faster. I do wonder though if we're seeing diminishing returns.
I imagine that has to do with the ever increasing engineering ability at packaging the "front" engine farther and farther back into the chassis, to the point where it is by any practical stand-point a "mid-engine" At least when it comes to weight balance.
I remember that being a very big part of the discussion for the new C7 'Vette and how to improve its already impressive handling, while not moving to a true mid-engine architecture since GM had absolutely no ability to produce that kind of platform back then. They somehow managed to push the engine even farther back into the chassis.
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472CID
> Manwich - now Keto-Friendly
03/11/2015 at 13:27 |
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Even there mid engines be stealing their thunder.
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472CID
> spanfucker retire bitch
03/11/2015 at 13:29 |
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I suppose ideally you'd put the engine as central (and low) in the car as possible, which makes finding a place for the driver kind of awkward.
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472CID
> TheHondaBro
03/11/2015 at 13:30 |
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Given the way the list progresses I'd say it'd be slower.
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472CID
> Milky
03/11/2015 at 13:32 |
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Which is why I was disappointed when they quietly showed an ACR concept that looked like it was just a collection of Mopar performance parts. I hope they go all Hellcat and put a bit of effort into the new ACR.
Tom
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 13:35 |
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Hellcat?
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472CID
> JGrabowMSt
03/11/2015 at 13:36 |
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Aftermarket =/= manufacturer production car. Anyone can slap a blower on a big engine and make 1000+hp, making that engine pass emissions, run on pump gas, and have a warranty is a completely different matter. I mentioned the Hellcat, it's not especially fast round a track.
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472CID
> Tom
03/11/2015 at 13:38 |
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I mentioned it, it's relatively not very fast on a track with turns.
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spanfucker retire bitch
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 13:39 |
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Right. I agree that I think we're seeing diminishing returns here, but not so much for RWD (though vehicles like the R8, GTR, 911 Turbo, Lambos, etc certainly make a good argument about the benefits of AWD) as it is for the front-mounted.
I think those Zora rumors might actually be true, and if they indeed are tru e, then it shows that the engineering team for the Corvette believed that the C7 is as far as they can go from a performance stand-point for a front-mounted engine design. Even as far back into the chassis as the placement may be.
DConsorti
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 13:42 |
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No love for the oldies?
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JGrabowMSt
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 13:44 |
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But the list you have only described power, weight and power to weight ratio, not track times. And the list doesn't even have the Hellcat compared to anything else.
I don't think it's fair to omit the Camaros or the Hellcats, consider the LFA isn't made anymore, nor is the SLR Stirling Moss, and there's no direct comparison of track times. The ZL1 Camaro certainly is fast around the track, but it's something different, as is the Hellcat.
Besides, what makes a lap time an indicator of how good it is? Probably 70% of the buyers wouldn't dare park their cars at a track, much less take the risk of running them on slicks.
I'm just trying to provoke conversation and thought, don't think I'm trying to make this personal or anything. I just think that the list should be a little more inclusive and have more data to compare the cars with to see how they stack up against each other, because the current numbers are the same thing we used to talk about in elementary school, but now that we're older, we know it's hardly enough to make a decision with.
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472CID
> JGrabowMSt
03/11/2015 at 13:56 |
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I mean the list was pretty much: new Z06, Viper, F12, Caterhams, and maybe some Mercedes. Between those cars is probably the fastest around a track for this layout. I mentioned some other cars (including the Hellcat) for good measure. Not many have raced a Hellcat around a track, but I'm sure a ZL1 or GT500 would beat it, and I'm sure a Z51 Stingray will beat those, based on what I've seen on Fastestlaps.com. In a drag race it would be competitive, but not definitively faster than many of these cars.
I'm not saying a faster car is overall a better car, but who's faster is the topic of the post.
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472CID
> DConsorti
03/11/2015 at 13:57 |
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I would be one of the fastest 40 years ago, heck it might have been one of the fastest in the early 1990s.
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Milky
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 14:16 |
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Me too my friend, me too. I still hope those rumors of supercharged V10's being delivered to Chrysler were true.
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JGrabowMSt
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 15:52 |
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Well, just going by that, you can sort it by competitive lap times as well as quarter mile times, for who wants what. More equal opportunity than just saying it's a bulky elephant around corners compared to a Corvette (in the case of the Hellcat).
You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 16:03 |
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The Speed 8's big brother would like a word. The Speed 12 broke a dyno, so the best estimate is ~960 bhp in an 1100 kg car.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TVR_Cerbe…
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472CID
> You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much
03/11/2015 at 16:14 |
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I thought about that car: A) they only sold one so it's really a prototype B) I have my doubts it could make it around a race track without spinning.
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You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 16:19 |
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It does have some "usability issues", but it was the most powerful FR car I could think of.
bryan40oop
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 17:16 |
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Honestly, tires. Tires are how cars get faster and faster. Take the new corvette. On top gear leader board it's up there with the carrera GT. The carrera is ~500 lbs lighter, and has 145 more HP. Statistically the vette should of been a wash, but it was right up there. Tire technology just keeps growing at an astounding rate, I mean 500lbs up & 145hp down, thats huge.
alwaysmiata
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 17:37 |
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The LFA is pretty dang quick considering it has "only 550hp" I think its still one of the fastest around the nurburgring also .... the glorious noises.
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472CID
> alwaysmiata
03/11/2015 at 18:07 |
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I'm still pretty skeptical of that time, but yeah, using 'ring times it's the second fastest.
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472CID
> bryan40oop
03/11/2015 at 18:09 |
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Yeah that's probably the biggest factor for these kinds of cars. It's hard to imagine tires getting too much better, but then people probably said that 20, 30, 40 years ago too.
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alwaysmiata
> 472CID
03/11/2015 at 19:52 |
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Me too although I'm pretty much skeptical of all ring times nowadays
gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee
> 472CID
03/12/2015 at 02:07 |
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Making a car mid-engined isn't a way to increase ability to handle massive amounts of horsepower. It's also not about weight distribution in a traditional sense, as front-engined cars with 50/50 weight distributions exist. The mid engine is all about that polar inertia. Keeping all the mass towards the centre of the car makes for much less resistance to changes in direction. It also helps to reduce drivetrain inefficiencies due to having less drivetrain between the engine and wheels, so you can eke out a little extra performance. But it's mostly a question of handling precision, not one of power.
As far as putting down the power, yeah, AWD makes it a bit easier, but I'll just say Koenigsegg when you ask if it's necessary for managing four-figure bhp numbers.
I think it's almost inevitable that we will soon see a mid-engined Corvette. I highly doubt there'll be an AWD model for a looooong time.
Blair
> 472CID
03/12/2015 at 19:49 |
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sometimes I swear you guys read my mind. I was just thinking about this the other day.
I kept thinking if they will make a C7 ZR1 and will it be a front engine or the crazy idea that C/D said where they will make it mid engine and then in the C8 gen thy will all be mid engine. Thats super expense to make a whole new Body/Chassis for a limited car when you have a perfectly good front engine chassis already made for the C7. Maybe in the C8 they might.
I figure that if the F12 has 740hp up front then the C7 Zr1 will at least go to 720Hp and from what they have learned from the drag issues with the Z06 C7, they will correct all of these and make a monster.......they just have too. Theres so much feedback from the C7 Z06 they can't make a much better Super Vette
olpetey
> 472CID
03/13/2015 at 01:53 |
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Which do you mean, highest top speed or quickest around a track?
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472CID
> olpetey
03/13/2015 at 10:08 |
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Best all around performance (fastest round a track), top speed probably goes something like 1)One-77, 2) F12 and/or 599 3) ZR1 and or Viper
RazoE
> Cherry_man1
03/13/2015 at 10:26 |
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The Brooklands
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Blair
> 472CID
03/06/2016 at 19:04 |
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so to update your post about what is the fastest front engine rear wheel drive car.............its the Ferrari f12 TDF
tyler haynes
> 472CID
10/04/2017 at 13:10 |
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i have seen some cars that are not stock but could destroy any stock cars performance in this list . when it comes to drag racing a front engine is the way to go you can fit bigger engines with more horsepower and torque than in a mid engine car.but when it comes to lap racing and track times its not the engine but the brakes and abitly to ram the rpm up very quickly that matter.